GM, Toyota Dismiss Fuel Cells for Mass Use

The Wall Street Journal reported this week that executives from General Motors Corp. and Toyota Motor Corp., at the Geneva Auto Show Tuesday, "expressed doubts about the viability of hydrogen fuel cells for mass-market production in the near term and suggested their companies are now betting that electric cars will prove to be a better way to reduce fuel consumption and cut tailpipe emissions on a large scale."

Both GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz and Toyota President Katsuaki Watanabe expressed strong opinions that fuel cells are too expensive and will be for some time and that advances in lithium-ion batteries make them much more practical as a mass-market product.  . . . read the WSJ article

in a somewhat related post, the MIT Technology Review has a little more information on GM's BAS+ mild hybrid system that further explains how the Hitachi Li-ion batteries fit in with that system that increase the mileage by 20% and indicates that GM will use about 100,000 of these batteries annually by 2010.

The new battery pack, a lithium-ion pack made by Hitachi, combined with an improved alternator-generator, can deliver three times more power than the company's older system, which used nickel metal hydride batteries. GM claims that this system will be a perfect complement to another fuel-saving strategy: downsizing the engine and adding a turbocharger for bursts of power. The turbocharger doesn't kick in right away, and it doesn't work well at low engine speeds. But the battery and motor kick in right away, compensating for the so-called turbo lag.

That is quite a change in attitude, considering the large amounts of money that these companies and others have spent developing fuel cells for light vehicles. This agrees with my assessment of the technology that I have expressed several times, most recently in my comments on my post EU Research Shows that Hydrogen Energy Could Reduce Oil Consumption in Road Transport by 40% by 2050.

Could the use of Hitachi batteries in their mild hybrids mean that they might not use A123Sytems batteries in the Volt or the Saturn hybrid? I don't think so, but does Hitachi have a better battery or is it just more available in the required time frame or is it just a means of diversifying suppliers.

Comments

[JDT]

Good questions Jim.

My thinking is that Hitachi's li-ion may not be the safest and not the most powerful and cooling is not required - but when you only need 4 KWh capacity there is less of an issue with these problems.

But for 14 KWh that the Volt needs, safety becomes paramount and cooling becomes a problem. So that is where A123 will come in.

I can't see GM depending on the Japanese for the heart of their strategy.

[Engineer-Poet]

Who didn't see this coming?

[fjh]

This was the conclusion at last summers alt?(electric) vehicles conference; even propulsion system designers are moving towards natural gas as a medium, CAL. just pulled the plug on the hydrogen refueling stations.

Hydro.heads won't give up, ever on their dream of a hydrogen economy, no matter how expensive the compression,storage, and conversion will be.

Meanwhile the rest of us appreciate the work they've done to 'make it work', but it just isn't practical or workable or sustainable.

[donb]

The turbocharger doesn't kick in right away, and it doesn't work well at low engine speeds. But the battery and motor kick in right away, compensating for the so-called turbo lag.

My fantasy about getting around the turbo lag problem is to integrate a high speed electric motor into the turbo. Use it to drive the turbo at low engine RPMs to overcome turbo lag. Then at higher revs, turn the motor into a generator to prevent overboost and recover power that can be used to run the hybrid motor in the power train for increased performance, or charge the battery, as needed.

[NanoEC]

JDT - very good insightful comments. I think Hitachi's cell is based on mixed metal oxide cathode, which has the same safety issue as good old LiCoO2. Even cooling a 4 kWh pack is a challenge, but much more tractable than 14-16 kWh pack (or 50 kWh for that matter). Anyone know what size/capacity cells the Hitachi pack is based on?

[MarkG]

Surprise! Here comes GENIE™
A revolutionary new technology, GENIE (Generating Electricity by Nondestructive Interference of Energy) is being developed at Magnetic Power Inc. It can be viewed as a magnetic analog of a fuel cell!

GENIE powered vehicles will:

1. Never require fuel of any kind
2. Help prevent future resource wars
3. Earn substantial cash for their owners
4. Reverse the decline of the auto industry
5. End the need to build more power plants
6. Eliminate concerns regarding fuel mileage
7. Generate new jobs and stimulate the economy
8. Create a powerful weapon against climate change

Fuel
Oil: In two years there will be a billion automotive vehicles worldwide, triggering ever higher prices for fuel. Biofuels: Some have positive potential, particularly for the inevitable transition period. Hydrogen: Billions in infrastructure are needed for most projected systems, including fuel cells. GENIE: No fuel will ever be required.

Resource Wars
The conflict in Iraq is clearly about oil. Can there be any doubt that nations will fight over shortages of fuel, water and food supplies? GENIE will rapidly cut back the demand for oil or any other fuel. It will also provide the power for inexpensive desalination plants, as well as pipelines to carry fresh water wherever it is needed.

Cars can earn income
Vehicle to grid (V2G) power was demonstrated during 2007. A December, 2007 article about V2G states that a hybrid electric car might earn $4,000 each year - for the vehicle’s owner - when parked, based on power drawn from the car’s batteries. In the future, GENIE is expected to replace both batteries and car engines as well as provide far greater amounts of electricity. A GENIE generator powering an electric auto might be thought of as a fuel cell that uses magnetism instead of hydrogen. We can easily switch this magnetic cell on or off. When the car is driving the GENIE cell is switched on, providing energy to the electric motor that propels the car. When a V2G vehicle is parked, the electric motor is turned 'off', but the GENIE cell remains "on", still producing energy like a fuel cell that runs on magnetism instead of hydrogen. Up to 150 kW, produced by the GENIE cell while the motor is off, can be transferred from the vehicle through a wireless technology requiring no physical connection to the parked car, providing power to the grid. Instead of paying to park, they pay you, because you provide the utility with electricity, a clean alternative to any existing type of power plant. Over a reasonable period of time, payments to the owner may be enough to reimburse the purchase price of a vehicle.

Provide a huge boost to the auto industry
Once cars and trucks become available that need no fuel, it is logical to expect manufacturers will sell every such vehicle they make. Plants that have been shut down will reopen. Auto workers who have been laid off will have the opportunity to be rehired. Large numbers of new automotive manufacturing jobs will be created.

No more coal, oil or nuclear plants
Cars are parked perhaps 90% of the time. Once cars are powered by GENIE, a typical urban parking lot could provide several megawatts of electricity. This system can be implemented in substantially less time than constructing a nuclear plant. It will also end the need to build new coal, oil, or other environmentally less desirable (or more costly) power plants. Electric power utilities are monitoring this technology.

Fuel mileage concerns will fade away
Cars that need no fuel will end the controversy about average mileage figures. Any car maker producing GENIE powered vehicles, will no longer have to meet that challenge. Congress can then concern itself with other, more important, issues.

Economic stimulus
Concern is rising that the American economy is facing a recession. A revolutionary product, as far-reaching as GENIE, has the potential to provide huge numbers of new jobs and opportunities for new enterprise. The economic impact of cars as power plants can stimulate the entire global economy. It can also provide distributed generation wherever the grid is lacking or unreliable.

A powerful new weapon to fight Global Warming
Greenland loses more ice each year than all the ice in the Alps. Elsewhere there is also frightening, massive, melting of ice. Al Gore, speaking at Bali, cited new evidence this week that the North Pole may be ice-free in summer as soon as 2012. The Observer newspaper, in the UK, has stated that: “In 8 years nearly all Peru's glaciers will be gone due to global warming and its 27 million people will nearly all lack fresh water, with the likely result being: 'chaos, conflict and mass migration'. Each 1 degree Celsius global temperature rise deprives between 400 million and 1.7 billion people of sufficient water. “A total of 46 nations and 2.7 billion people are now at high risk of being overwhelmed by armed conflict and war because of climate change”. More than 180 nations have coastal areas in peril. The world has twenty megacities. Thirteen of them, including New York, London, Miami, Shanghai and Tokyo, are at hazard. Drastic shifts are happening much more rapidly than earlier predicted. It has been stated: “What we do in the next two to three years will determine our future. This is the defining moment.”

The World’s Huge Appetite for Energy
Energy consumption is at the core of human existence. We must sharply accelerate development of new, cost-effective, sustainable alternatives. MPI has explored breakthrough technologies for more than 20 years. To reverse the dangerous trends mentioned above, MPI envisions a commercially developed technological revolution that conserves planetary resources. GENIE is projected to be easy to manufacture and use, as well as inexpensive, thus capable of rapidly achieving global impact. Yet, few scientists, engineers or policy makers, understand the reality of this work. The recent book: Zero Point Energy, by Thomas F. Valone, can begin to remedy that fact for those who are open-minded. The time has clearly come to rapidly increase awareness and development of this urgently needed technology.

www.magneticpowerinc.com

[Miguel]

The Hydrogen Education Foundation is surprised by the inaccurate elements in the article published in the Wall Street Journal about General Motors and Toyota abandoning their support to develop hydrogen cars on March 5, 2008. At about the same time the Wall Street Journal published their story about General Motors and Toyota, CNN published a story how BP and General Motors believe hydrogen is part of the future: http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/05/news/companies/bigoil_hydrogen/?postversion=2008030507 Plus, GM and Shell recently released a white paper which says "We have thought through many complex issues around sustainable transportation and our confidence in the future of hydrogen remains high." The fact remains that Toyota and General Motors, plus other major autos like Honda and BMW, are continuing with their endeavors to develop hydrogen cars. All are sponsors of the Hydrogen Education Foundation's new education initiative: H2 and You. The hub of the program is http://www.h2andyou.org.

Separate from the frequent emphasis on hydrogen cars, the reality is hydrogen can be used to power many applications. The next cell phone call you make could be powered by hydrogen since fuel cell power supplies support cell phone towers. In addition, the next time you shop at Wal-Mart the box of Oreo cookies and the new Blue Ray movie you purchase could be transported with a fuel cell forklift.

While the transition to hydrogen may appear to be complicated and far into the future, organizations such as Shell, Chevron, and BP are working with the Department of Energy now to establish a hydrogen fueling infrastructure. An initial $10 to $15 billion investment, equivalent to about one month of military spending in Iraq, would establish an initial refueling infrastructure within 2 miles anywhere within the top 100 metro areas and along all US highways. Furthermore, more than 40 billion kg of hydrogen are produced globally each year with production plants located near or within every major metropolitan city in the US - enough to fuel 130 million fuel cell-electric vehicles annually. Since hydrogen is also used to produce gasoline, switching from gas to hydrogen is simpler than it appears.

The Hydrogen Education Foundation appreciates the complexity of transitioning to using new fuels. We invite everyone to learn about what is fact and fiction about hydrogen as an alternative fuel.

[Clee]

What's inaccurate about
"expressed doubts about the viability of hydrogen fuel cells for mass-market production in the near term"

when the money.cnn.com article you mention says:
"They came to the same bottom line: Hydrogen will likely fuel the cars of the future, although it could take 50 years to get there. Until then, each company will pursue different strategies for developing new energy sources."

[Danzig]

Marc Goldes,

Good news: I have found your meds! I'll try to get them to you right away. Your enthusiasm for GENIE suggests that you have missed several scheduled doses.

[Mark Goldes]

I knew I lost them somewhere!

[Albert Bezzina]

Does anybody out there have some idea where I can get figures for energy wasted in charging battries in plug-in road vehicles? That is energy wasted in charging the cells against internal resistance and the unwanted heat which are also related to the speed of charging. For example how much Wh of energy is wasted for each KWh of stored battery power when charged over 3hours or 12 hours?

[Enoch]

Mark Goldes: Is that Brooklyn bridge still available?

[Stephen Boulet]

Albert, have a look at Tesla's white paper.

Stephen

[TheSunHarvest.com]

Voted YES on targeting 100,000 hydrogen-powered vehicles by 2010.
Dorgan Amdt. No. 865; To require that the hydrogen commercialization plan of the Department of Energy include a description of activities to support certain hydrogen technology deployment goals. Part of S 14 Energy Omnibus bill; this vote would pass an amendment that would call for the Department of Energy to set targets and timelines to maintain the production of 100,000 hydrogen-powered vehicles by 2010, and 2.5 million vehicles annually by 2020. It also would call for the department to set targets for the sale of hydrogen at fueling stations. The bill would require the Energy secretary to submit a yearly progress report to Congress.

A one-megawatt plant running continuously at full capacity can power 778 households each year, according to the U.S. Department of Energy

[Steve]

Great site you have!

Would you like a Link Exchange with THE INTERNET RADIO NETWORK? At the IRN you can listen for free to over 60 of America’s top Talk Shows via Free Streaming Audio! In addition you can email the President, VP, First Lady and Congressional Leaders…

http://netradionetwork.com

[Engineer-Poet]

Voted YES on targeting 100,000 hydrogen-powered vehicles by 2010.

Let's not and say we did.

Dorgan Amdt. No. 865; To require that the hydrogen commercialization plan of the Department of Energy include a description of activities to support certain hydrogen technology deployment goals.

Deploying an unworkable technology is great for the tech purveyors, but very bad for policy and the public.  Hydrogen is nothing but an energy medium, and pushing hydrogen vehicles does nothing to either provide more energy or make better use of what we've got.  Hydrogen is made from either natural gas or electricity in a lossy process, and its use is also lossy; hydrogen is a huge step backward.

[Clee]

Let's not and say we did.
Dorgan Amdt. No. 865

Don't worry, we didn't. 67 senators may have voted yes on that amendment back in 2003, but the Senate bill 14 that it was attached to never came to a vote.

[Kit P]

“Deploying an unworkable technology is great for the tech purveyors, but very bad for policy and the public. Hydrogen is nothing but an energy medium, and pushing hydrogen vehicles does nothing to either provide more energy or make better use of what we've got.”

Oh gosh, I agree with E-P. Shame on those chemical engineers for pushing fuel cells. Clueless.

Then there are those EE who think PHEV are somehow a good idea in the US while ignoring the reasons HFCV are stupid that apply to PHEV.

[Engineer-Poet]

What would be those reasons, exactly?  Details and links, please.

[Kit P]

E-P you are a slow learner. You want me to provide links comparing an “unworkable technology” such as PHEV to the standard of ICE. We have had this discussion. E-P and many on this board confuse press releases to actual data for proven ideas. It is always the same. Make up numbers for what does not exist and compare them to a 1970 Chevy pickup.

If E-P is really a practicing engineer, then he knows the road of wish full thinking is potholes with reality. Both PHEV and HFCV are dreadful ideas because they make the underlying problem worse.

So if you really want to have this discussion again, first tell me what the underlying problems that you want to solve one at at a time. I will then explain to E-P why both choices are bad.

[David Nicholson]

Here is one way to get hydrogen from wind without human resistance and aquifer depletion. www.windhunter.org

Using the steam reforming process to get H2 from natural gas produces 5.5 pounds of CO2 for each pound of hydrogen.

[Engineer-Poet]

Perhaps you were short on facts last time, Kit.  We have examples of existing PHEVs, which you ought to address if they are, to quote you, "stupid".

[TheSunHarvest.com]

hydrogen production via the electrolysis NREL's Distributed Energy Resource Test Facility is an ideal location for examining the of water. The facility offers the flexibility of interconnecting various renewable sources to electrolyzers and their hydrogen-producing stacks. NREL is testing integrated electrolysis systems and investigating options for improved designs that will lower capital costs and enhance performance of the naturally varying power input from renewable sources to the electrolyzer.

[TheSunHarvest.com]

Hydrogen provides ideal storage medium for intermittent wind energy
MISSISSAUGA, ONTARIO, January 12, 2006 – Hydrogenics Corporation (NASDAQ: HYGS; TSX: HYG), announced today that the company was awarded a contract by Basin Electric Power Cooperative, Bismarck, N.D., to supply an electrolyzer-based hydrogen refuelling station for installation in Minot, N.D.. In addition to the core electrolyzer module, Hydrogenics is supplying compression, storage and dispenser equipment as part of the contract. The station is one of the first United States-based hydrogen fueling stations to use electricity from a wind power resource to produce hydrogen from water, in this case using electricity generated by wind resources either owned or contracted by Basin Electric.

The hydrogen produced will be used to refuel hydrogen-powered vehicles, demonstrating a linkage between wind power and vehicle refueling. Recognizing the challenge presented by the intermittency and varying outputs of wind power, an important element of the project is the development of various control schemes by which the electrolyzer can interface with the electrical output of wind turbines to optimize fuel production, particularly during low electricity demand periods. The project will demonstrate the ability and practicality of making and using hydrogen energy with zero carbon emissions, using excess wind power that might otherwise be under-utilized. This capability can potentially lead to significantly enhanced overall efficiencies of existing and future wind power installations.

[Clee]

Converting electricity (e.g. from renewable sources) to hydrogen (electrolysis) to electricity (fuel cell) seems an incredibly lossy waste.
http://www.aedb.org/fuelcell_basics.php
claims "The theoretical Maximum Efficiency that is achievable by Fuel Cell is 69%",
while Li-ion batteries already have a roundtrip efficiency of over 90%
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TH1-43X7V64-7&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=3484c48fb6a1d671bd2ebabc866f64d5

Doesn't seem like fuel cells can ever catch up.

[Kit P]

E-P should run for public office, he has PR down pat. Start with a personal attack and then never, never, answer a question you do not want to answer.

E-P claims to be an engineer but claims HFCV is “unworkable technology” while providing a link to the existence of PHEV which clearly shows PHEV are “unworkable technology”.

Clearly there is a significant demand for POV in the world. Clearly 99.999% of POV buyers demonstrate PHEV and HFCV are “unworkable technology” by not buying them.

Again the question is, what “underlying problems that you want to solve” by persuading those 99.999% of POV buyers to consider the risk of buying “unworkable technology”.

[Kit P]

“Doesn't seem like fuel cells can ever catch up.”

You are correct Clee. However, at 90% battery efficiency and 90% battery efficiency PHEV will not catch up either. Clee you may want to move to ND to take advantage of the huge potential surplus wind energy.

The first thing Clee will notice is how clean the air. Second, he will fall in love with coal generated electricity on the first forty below day. Where is global warming when you need it?

[Clee]

If I want to save energy, why would I want to move from a mild climate to ND? I like having a heating bill of under $100 for the entire year.

[Engineer-Poet]

In response to this polite query:

What would be those reasons, exactly? Details and links, please.

Kit P responds with this characterization:

E-P should run for public office, he has PR down pat. Start with a personal attack and then never, never, answer a question you do not want to answer.

In other words, he accuses me of doing the exact thing he just did.

This is hilarious.  If I'm a pol, Kit P. is an unwitting comedian.

[Kit P]

“If I want to save energy, why would I want to move from a mild climate to ND?”

So you can work at the wind farm to charge the batteries in your PHEV batteries Clee. Yes, Clee there is a disconnect in the logic but it is your logic.

[Engineer-Poet]

I think there ought to be plenty of wind farms in ND (and MN, WI, IA and so forth) but they ought to be an export industry selling power via HVDC links to Minneapolis, Chicago, and across the Great Lakes to Grand Rapids, Midland, Detroit, Windsor, Toledo, Cleveland and Toronto.  At 1210 billion kWh/yr, wholesaling that energy at 4¢/kWh would gross close to 50 billion dollars a year.  In contrast, multiplying the state population by the per-capita income yields just under 20 billion dollars a year.

In other words, full exploitation of N. Dakota's wind resource could more than triple the state GDP.

[Clee]

Kit P, Thanks so much for telling me what my logic is. I've never said I planned to buy a PHEV. I was actually a bit horrified to find out that my idea of the the best car for me to buy next is the one you recommended to your wife, the Honda Fit. Though, if I actually go test ride one, maybe I'd agree with her that it's not the best.

[Cyril R.]

It just occurred to me in the other thread, that another downside of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles is that they are not suitable for V2G. They simply waste too much energy to be economical and practical for this purpose.

[Cyril R.]

Here are just a few reasons why hydrogen is inferiour altogether:

Hydrogen's Death Knell

[Richard Schwartz]

Re global warming and energy use, why is society generally ignoring that animal-based diets require far more energy than plant-based diets, and that a 2006 UN FAO study indicated that animal-based agriculture emits more greenhouse gases (in CO2 equivalents( than all the cars, ships, planes and all other means of transportation worldwide combined, and that the number of farmed animals is projected to double in the next 50 years, negating the positive greenhouse emissions reduction effects of many other changes?

[Kit P]

Richard, society is not “Re global warming and energy use, why is society generally ignoring that animal-based diets require far more energy than plant-based diets, a ...”

If you can not find your pet issue in a discussion about HFCV I will correct that.

Plants convert energy from the sun to food and fiber. Animals use the food and fiber. Bacteria break down the food and fiber to minerals that the plants use. The cycle starts again.

Bacteria produce lots of ghg (CO2, Methane, & NO2). Richard you sound like a vegan. If you would like to provide a link the “2006 UN FAO study” I will be a happy to educate you. My guess is that you never actually read the report, just some lame press release.

I do not like eating grass. Some animals do. Other animals like eating those animals including me. I like buying a nice steak at the food store rather than competing with a pack of wilds over a dead animal.

Does this require more energy? American farmers are very efficient at feeding the world. This is a fact that is always neglected when idiots claim our small fraction of the world population uses 25% of the world oil some if going to farmers to run their tractors.

So what is better for the environment, 30 million buffalo roaming North America or the equivalent weight of cows in a feedlots? Since feedlots are regulated under the CWA, the feedlot is better. Just a hundred years ago, meat protein was laking in the diet of the poor in the US. Not anymore.

[baley]

Hydrogen is not a good solution for energy storage now or later. Unless you can make fuel cells without noble metals as platinum.

I guess the most promising way for the future engines is to research on better batteries. The battery pack can be removable, and when the power goes down you could pull into a special service bay where they could swap out the battery from underneath the car.

[Engineer-Poet]

There are several problems with swappable battery packs, including:

• The structural issues with a heavy component which can't be integrated into the vehicle structure
• The fact that a removable, valuable component will be frequently stolen
• Bootstrapping problems, including
  1. The requirement for a large infrastructure before such vehicles become widely useful, and
  2. The requirement to standardize batteries before such vehicles can be mass-produced.

The PHEV gets around this problem by using liquid fuel for extended range; all the infrastructure is already there.

[Bob Wallace]

1. Israel seems to be going forward with BEVs that utilize swappable battery packs. They think it can be done.

Additionally, it would be possible to design vehicles with "passenger compartments" that could be rapidly moved to "propulsion platforms". When the batteries were low you would drive to a changing station and your 'compartment' would be moved to a freshly charged 'platform'. You'd pay for platform use (batteries, tires, electricity) by the mile.

2. Theft could be made difficult. The packs would be heavy. And a code system could be built in much like is used with stereo systems today.

And what's the market for a stolen set of batteries?

3. We are likely to see vast improvements in the grid (HVDC and 'smart grid') in addition to new sources of electricity coming on line. The mechanics of moving a battery pack or 'passenger compartment' is pretty simple. Not much more than a specialized fork life.

4. Standardization is standardization. Not a show-stopper. We standardize all sorts of things already.

(But I doubt that we'll need to go down that route. BEV range should soon serve the vast portion of drivers. Efficient plug in hybrids would fill the needs of those who need to travel more than 100-150 miles per day.)

[Bob Wallace]

Designing a 'standardized' battery pack...

Probably multiple sizes. There's going to be a need for vehicles of multiple sizes, two seater urban get-arounds, 'mini vans' for larger families, etc.

We're likely to see BEVs with motors built into the wheels. That eliminates power loosing transmissions and differentials.

Those wheels can be mounted on struts which extend a few inches below the bottom of the vehicle. Doing so would leave room for a 4' x 12' x 4" (made up some quick dimensions) for a battery pack that would ride below the passenger compartment.

Putting the pack low would help with the stability of the vehicle.

Pull into a changing station, over a change out bay and your depleted pack is extracted. Then a new one would be attached and you're out the door.

Not all that different than changing the battery pack in my portable drill....

[Engineer-Poet]

Israel seems to be going forward with BEVs that utilize swappable battery packs.

Israel is a country which can be driven from end to end on one charge of many existing EVs*.  A handful of swap stations can serve much of the country; the USA is a radically different case.

Additionally, it would be possible to design vehicles with "passenger compartments" that could be rapidly moved to "propulsion platforms".

You're talking about completely up-ending the auto industry's business model.  If you think this can be done in less than 20 years, you're dreaming.

Theft could be made difficult. The packs would be heavy.

Entire vehicles are heavier, and they're stolen all the time.

And what's the market for a stolen set of batteries?

At least as big as the market for stolen car doors and wheels; whole battery packs and individual cells would have a great market, both for refurbishment of vehicle packs (cells go bad) and non-road use.  They'd also have considerable value as scrap; if people steal copper and aluminum, they'd steal batteries.

* It's 93 miles from Haifa to Sderot.  I couldn't believe how hard it was to get this number; Google Maps shows no cities in Israel, and Yahoo! Maps refuses to recognize any of the names despite displaying them and won't calculate distances between geographic coordinates.  I finally got useful info out of InfoPlease.

[Engineer-Poet]

Probably multiple sizes. There's going to be a need for vehicles of multiple sizes, two seater urban get-arounds, 'mini vans' for larger families, etc.

And who's going to build the swapping bay and carry the inventory of these batteries before there's a large customer base?  Who's going to buy such a vehicle when there's no chain of swapping stations on one's regular routes?

This is a classic chicken/egg problem.  The PHEV fixes 80% of the problem and uses existing infrastructure for the other 20%, which is why it's going to win in the USA.

[Bob Wallace]

As I posted earlier...

"(But I doubt that we'll need to go down that route. BEV range should soon serve the vast portion of drivers. Efficient plug in hybrids would fill the needs of those who need to travel more than 100-150 miles per day.)"

But if we really needed to move to exchangeable battery packs, there is nothing in your posts that would prevent us from doing so.

We already know the answer to which came first, chicken or egg. Clearly the egg. (Unless you're a creationist. ;o)

Were there a large scale decision then swap stations will be created. Just as gas stations were built along Interstate 5 when it was opened through largely undeveloped farmland in the interior valleys of California.

Battery packs would not be individually owned, but rented.

It would be easy to build in digital IDs that would make it essentially impossible to utilize

The system would be initiated in larger urban areas and spread over time to more rural areas. Just as we would do were we to adopt hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.

(Something that I also see as unlikely.)

[TheSUBWAY.com]

It's good to hear BP & GM talk about alternative fuels, but 50 years to implement is too long.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/05/news/companies/bigoil_hydrogen/index.htm

Perhaps this link will spark more attention:

http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar/

It is GM's electric concept car the Chevy Volt. If more people begin to demand alternative fuel cars, we should be able to speed the rate at which the technology is developed.

We have started an Investor Forum where Investors can meet and discuss topics like this:

http://investor-forum.thesubway.com/

[Chris (myfreegasonline.com) Waters]

If electric is the way to go then figure out a way to bring down the prices of the cars so it is comparable to fuel cars.

I am just glad I get my gas for free right now.

[Run your car on water]

Hey there I really enjoyed reding your blog and its good that people are getting the word out on this technology. PLease feel free to visit my blog http://run-your-car-on-water.blogspot.com/

[Bashar]

Finally - the truth about hydrogen fuel cars is making its way to the mainstream. Marketing gurus have done a wonderful job of letting the average Joe think that hydrogen cells are the answer to the world’s problems. I recently blogged about this, and drew from various sources to show that the efficiency of hydrogen cells is about half that of conventional gasoline-powered engines. All hail the electric car! If anyone’s interested in the number, check out my posting on Aug 1st.

Bashar
www.solarphile.com

[735409]

Kia shows hybrid in Paris

The new small cars Soul is a study in a hybrid version to see the combination of a 1.6-liter gasoline with a 15 kW/20 hp electric motor to assist during acceleration is the consumption of five to 4.9 liters of fuel per 100 km press.http://www.hydrogen-motors.com/hydrogen/

[hydrogen]

Toyota Dismiss Fuel Cells for Mass Use

[zorich]

Я разгадал один из рисунков в пустыне Наска.
Чтобы МЫ были интересны ИМ, нужно показать свой уровень мышления. Необходимо запатентовать новую технологию(Вам это ничего не стоит)
Но это очень важно для всего человечества.
Это новый альтернативный источник энергии.
Контакт желательно на рус.языке.
Но можно и на англ. Автор и патентовладелец
могут быть разные лица. Могу взять соавторов.
Это 100%сенсация. Regards,inventor Zorich.
Inentor---apparent investor for business.
He invest intellect propriety.