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December 03, 2007

Comments

Mitch

Hi,

"Valence believes its new generation of phosphate-based lithium-ion battery systems will move the electric vehicle industry one step closer to the Holy Grail -- finding a battery solution that is safe, intelligent, lasts longer and weighs less than outdated technologies being used today."

What is currently needed is not better Li-Ion batteries. The current state of the art Li-Ion are sufficient. What is crucial right now is less expensive (which is not mentioned in the press release) state of the art Li-Ion batterries.

Mitch

Kit P

“Epoch branded battery products will also provide users a "green" alternative to environmentally contaminating lead-acid batteries.”

More green washing. Storing electricity is inherently wasteful. In the case of adaptive breaking, batteries could be used to recover the wasted energy of wasteful driving habits.

Mary Soderstrom

May I point out an interesting report released last week by CIBC World Money which suggests that energy efficiency does not necessarily mean decreased energy consumption. http://research.cibcwm.com/res/Eco/EcoResearch.html

If this is true, we are going to have to attack the twin problems of energy consumption and green house gases in ways other that merely increasing energy efficiency or shifting to other energy sources. This could mean some things which we won't like, such as rationing, unless there is some sort of paradigm shift in how people view consumption.

Mary

donb

Kit P. said:
Storing electricity is inherently wasteful.

This is one of those "yes, but..." moments. Yes, it is true that less energy comes out of a battery than goes in when it is charged. But, if the battery is charged using efficient base load generation and is then discharged into the grid to reduce inefficient peak load generation, energy can be saved. Construction of peaking plants can be avoided. If the battery is used in a vehicle, and the combined efficiency of the power plant used to charge the battery and the "round-trip" on the battery is better than the efficiency of the engine in a conventional automobile, energy is saved.

Even if the battery vehicle is break even compared to an oil powered vehicle, the battery vehicle is still better since oil is relatively scarce compared to the multiple energy sources available to generate electricity.

DavidJ

KitP: nothing but cynicism.

Storing inherently wasteful? Not inherently so, as the laws of physics do not preclude 100% efficient devices. In practice there is some wastage, like most systems, including the ICE.

Adaptive breaking? Do you mean regenerative braking?

Wasteful driving habits? Like braking for a red light?

Carl Hage

Mitch writes: What is crucial right now is less expensive state of the art Li-Ion batterries.

I agree-- the current NiMh batteries offer a point of comparison. Hybrid cars have an advantage that they can benefit from low capacity and wimpy power (cruise power vs accelleration).

Aside from cost, the Epoch is an improvement over the NiMh Prius battery system in storage (1.5KWh vs 1.3Kwh), size and weight. However, I looked at the Epoch power, 130A/200A, or about 2.5KW, is way less than the ~20KW Prius pack.

This looks good for a Segway, etc. or alternative to lead acid truck battery for hotel power, but not suitable for an HEV.

Engineer-Poet

The obvious solution is to put 8 of them into the Prius and go PHEV.  An 8-pack of EEVs would store about 12.5 kWh; taking the pack down to 60% discharge would allow the car to be driven ~37 miles on electricity alone.

Kit P

I can not quibble that donb's position is not valid at least some of the time and I like more choices, but how does that make batteries environmentally friendly?

GreenPlease

Geeze, just partner with a major manufacturer and produce these suckers. They've got the chemistry down.

Just think:

Laptops that can run for half a day...

Cell phones that need to be charged once a week...

A real EV...

David

I'll take your bait Kit P. It is all about CO2. Although you don't seem to take GW very seriously, the worlds scientific community does.

Paul H.

There is not enough Lithium to allow a major shift to pure electric or hybrid electric vehicles. It's like researching to find better and better ways to use solid platinum bars in transportation. In the end I don't believe they can make it really cost effective because of the scarcity of Lithium. Lithium is just a step until something better like carbon-nanotube enhanced ultra-capacitors come along.

Mike

"There is not enough Lithium to allow a major shift to pure electric or hybrid electric vehicles."

From the Compact Power website:
http://www.compactpower.com/faq.html

"Based on current assessments of global Lithium supply of approximately seven billion kg, this analysis implies that available Lithium can support a production of approximately 33 billion strong/full HEV's. It should be noted that the global annual production of all vehicles is currently at approximately 70 million and the total population of vehicles on the road today is approximately 800 million."

Mike

Kit P

"More green washing. Storing electricity is inherently wasteful. In the case of adaptive breaking, batteries could be used to recover the wasted energy of wasteful driving habits."

I'm not sure what your point here is. Is it that you don't think batteries are good for the environment, as implied in a following post?

"but how does that make batteries environmentally friendly?"

There are many things that are not good for the environment if handled improperly. Are you saying that batteries can't be handled in a manner that doesn't cause harm to the environment?


Green Assassin Brigade

We've been down this road before the claims of endless lithium are bogus, Lithium while very prevalent only congragates in a meaningfull and cost effective minable form in lithium salts that only exist in Quantities for perhaps 60 million cars. Lithium is everywhere but to get if from rock or water when measured in parts per million will never be cost effective.

Robert McLeod

Sodium has been demonstrated as a partial (cathode only, not electrolyte) or full replacement for lithium:

http://entropyproduction.blogspot.com/2007/10/sodium-ion-batteries.html

The Sodium chemistry likely has a lower redox potential compared to the lithium, but it is not in short supply.


Kit P

“Are you saying that batteries can't be handled in a manner that doesn't cause harm to the environment?”

No Mike, but Valence Technology is making that claim about other batteries to conclude their batteries are environmentally friendly.

TJ

At about 105 Wh/Kg I don't see how this is a move forward. There are Li-Ion batteries with much better energy/weight ratio than that.

I don't want to be lugging around an extra 200lbs in my electro-scooter to get decent range.

Energy density and price are the main problems right now with Li-Ion and battery storage in general. I don't see how this addresses either.

Paul H.

I read the thing about the Sodium ion battery research and that looks like it has a lot of promise, and the nice thing is the innovations in the lithium batteries are very transferable to sodium ion batteries. And the sodium ion batteries seem to have the potential for very high cycle life. Thanks for the link, Robert!

petr

'storing energy is inherently wasteful'
?

In British Columbia, BC Hydro stores an immense amount of energy in Williston lake
(the largest lake in the province) 680sq. mi
& at its creation in 1968 the largest artificial reservoir in the world.

BC Hydro buys cheap offpeak power from US base load coalpower plants and sells it back to the US at a profit at peak times.
WHo's being wasteful here?

petr

'storing energy is inherently wasteful'
?

In British Columbia, BC Hydro stores an immense amount of energy in Williston lake
(the largest lake in the province) 680sq. mi
& at its creation in 1968 the largest artificial reservoir in the world.

BC Hydro buys cheap offpeak power from US base load coalpower plants and sells it back to the US at a profit at peak times.
WHo's being wasteful here?

Kit P

Let me clarify something for DavidJ and petr. I said “Storing electricity is inherently wasteful.”

I will be happy to provide some good ways to store energy until it is needed. Storing melting snow in mountain lakes is a good way to store the potential energy. My wood pile is a good way to store solar energy for home heating in winter.

There may be some good reason for wasting energy by storing electricity in batteries. Starting my car is one. Running my car for 10 miles is not.

Paul

Driving a car for 10 miles if you only drive 10 miles per day is a good use of electricity. Electric motors are like 80 or 90% efficient. Lithium Ion batteries have a very slow discharge rate, and if you recharge every night, you have a very small amount of energy wasted by storing it in batteries. Using a battery to start a gas powered car is nice I guess, but you leave this trail of greenhouse gas and stink everywhere you go.
It shouldn't smell better after it rains!

Mike

Kit P

"There may be some good reason for wasting energy by storing electricity in batteries. Starting my car is one. Running my car for 10 miles is not."

Here is a good reason: Energy Security


The difference in efficiency between converting oil to gasoline and burning it in an ICE vs burning it to make electricity and powering a PHEV is probably a wash, but, using electricity for transportation allows any fuel source to be used: Coal, Oil, Natural Gas, Nuclear, Biomass, Ocean, Wind, Solar, Geothermal.

Kit P

Mike, you have a misconception based on old data. Each year we are setting new records for importing LNG to make electricity.

EIA is also projecting that the US may become a net importer of coal by 2016.

PHEV has become just another idea, energy security can be scratched off the list of that might make it a good one.

Dan B

Even the electronic global village seems to have its village idiot.

Mike

Kit

"Mike, you have a misconception based on old data. Each year we are setting new records for importing LNG to make electricity."

And every year we are setting records for importing oil to waste in cars. What's your point?

"EIA is also projecting that the US may become a net importer of coal by 2016."

Because we are running out of coal right? No, I didn't think so. If we import more it is just becuase the other countries can supply it cheaper.

The point you are missing, or deliberately ignoring, is that the ability to rely on many different energy sources for transportation is more secure than relying on just one.

Kit P

Mike, how do you define energy security? Your misconceptions may be based on listening to scare mongering politicians. Energy security is derived from domestic production that can not be interrupted with a few exorcet missiles at a shipping choke point.

The US has huge reserves of natural gas and coal. No other country in the world can produce natural gas and coal cheaper than the US if they follow our safety and environmental rules.

The PHEV advocates are 'deliberately ignoring' where the energy to charge the batteries are coming from ans what the environmental impact is.

My gripe is with the say one thing and do another. California has an energy plan that spends lots or words promoting renewable energy to reduce ghg and achieve energy security. California' energy plan also discusses increasing reliance on LNG which is the real source of new generation.

Mike

Kit

I get that you don't like importing natural gas, I also assume you feel similiarly about importing oil, if not I would be curious why. That leaves 7 sources of energy to power PHEVs. If we don't have PHEVs/EVs, then we need oil or synthetic fuel. I think the electric route is more efficient than synthetic fuel.

I am still puzzled why you think it is not more secure to have nine sources of energy available than to have only one.


Kit P

Mike, help me out here if you want me to answer your question. Please tell us what you mean by energy security. Mike brought up energy security, he should at least tell us what he means.

Since I am an engineer my answer might be different than that a lawyer debating solutions. A lawyer is going to give you a long list while I might only give you two or three of the best choices.

Importing oil (or LNG) to make base load electricity to charge a battery to drive a car should not be on any list for energy security. However, since oil and LNG are good fuels for making electricity; small amounts (1-2%) of electricity added to coal, hydroelectric, domestic natural gas, renewable energy, and nuclear make for a more reliable supply of electricity.

Note the subtle difference between a reliable supply of electricity and energy security.

Now a history lesson. Back in the 60s someone had the bright idea of making electricity with 'clean and cheap' oil instead of that nasty dirty coal. This is before OPEC caused us to be concerned about energy security.

Mike

"However, since oil and LNG are good fuels for making electricity; small amounts (1-2%) of electricity added to coal, hydroelectric, domestic natural gas, renewable energy, and nuclear make for a more reliable supply of electricity."

I don't disagree with that at all. I'm not for or against imports; I think we need to be very conservative about how much and from who we import from. I think the larger issue is one of trade balance.

I guess my definition of energy security is: the ability of the energy infrastructure to sustain a certain standard of living over an indefinitely long time.

And I'm not a lawyer, I'm an engineer.

Kit P

Mike, using your definition of energy security; consider the difference between the energy crisis of the 70s and the California crisis of 2000/2001. Our standard of living was significantly altered in the 70s because of the part of our energy supply were the 'infrastructure' was outside of our control.

The California crisis of 2000/2001 was caused by a lack of 'infrastructure' to produce electricity. Since California is very anti-coal, nuke, and offshore drilling, they are left with LNG and pixie dust.

My utility is testing batteries. The difference between my utility and California utilities is reliability. If you have a reliable supply of energy from coal or nuclear storing electricity may be a good idea. However, adding transportation demand to the grid that is meeting new demand by importing LNG is not a good idea.

Mike

Kit

"If you have a reliable supply of energy from coal or nuclear storing electricity may be a good idea."

I don't think we have a disagreement then.

sean costello

I am in the high-end car conversion business and I can get large format battery packs from china for $600-800 per kWh of storage and 800-1k in small quantities. Why would I buy Valence batteries (or any other brand for that matter) for $2k-2400 per kWh of storage - until batteries hit about $250/kWh they will not see the mainstream for 100% all-electric operation.

Electric Scooters

Thanks for sharing this information!

Who cares if energy is wasted....as long as it's cleanly produced!

I believe that scooters are one answer to the growing problem of pollution and global warming! They are perfect for commuting within a city, or for any short trip.

I also have a website about scooters that you may wish to check out. Feel free to visit at: http://www.electricscooteroutlet.com

Thanks again!

oilfield equipment

it seems like this technology gets better every month. i hope it never peaks because it is good for every body with a phone.

ugg outlet

It is really nice for me to see you and your great hardwork again.Every piece of your work look excellent.Looking forward to hearing more from you!

paydayloans

Energy blogs are always interesting to read. Especially learning new technologies from it.

r4


thanks !! very helpful post!Keep working ,great job!

SEO Los Angeles

What are these batteries going to be used for?

dentist west hollywood

If this was the 3rd generation what are they at now?

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