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October 14, 2007

Comments

James

How much greenhouse gases does it produce compared to natural gas? I hear methane is a major offender when it comes to CO2 production...

jcwinnie

You left out a key ingredient in the recipe, Jim. An effective means of capturing the methane that prevents adding to GHG load.

JE

A perhaps minor technical glitch in the article is that Oxygen, at least at atmospheric concentrations seldom if ever kills methane forming anaerobes. It merely stops methane formation. We seed anaerobic digesters with air exposed methane formers all the time. Should not be much of an issue since it would likely be undesireable to add oxygen into this "LUCA" envronment in the first place.

fjh

A.D. isn't new; using it for coal and peat is.

Carbon rich slurries have to be formulated for maximizing the microbial action, first acidification, then methane production.

And they have to be heated...some use heated water from the 'producer' gas; but a new wrinkle are solar heaters since once installed are cost free.

BASF...hmmm. everyone is getting into the act these days.

bigTom

James,jcwinnie: Natural gas is (primarily) methane, the terms are often used interchangeably. Presumably extraction is the same as conventional natural gas wells. Natural gas is not a GHG free process, but produces about half the CO2/Joule as coal. It at least gets us part way towards lower emmisions.

Kit P

When it comes to reducing ghg emissions in the US, capturing methane and burning it is the second largest source of ghg reductions (improvements at existing nuclear power plants being the largest).

“The collective results of EPA's voluntary methane partnership programs have been substantial. Total U.S. methane emissions in 2005 were more than 11% lower than emissions in 1990, in spite of economic growth over that time period.”

One of the reasons is “Methane is about 21 times more powerful at warming the atmosphere than carbon dioxide (CO2)”

http://www.epa.gov/methane/index.html
http://airnow.gov/

The second reason is that methane has value when the CO2 and H2S is removed.

Harvey D

According to Ontario's Clean Air Alliance, NG Power plants generate 60.4% less GHG than Coal Power plants, i.e.
Nitrogen Oxides = up to -88%
Sulphur Dioide = - 98 to -99%
Mercury = -100%
CO2 = - 60%

Would the methane produced by this process have the same clean burning properties as NG?

Secondly, NG (or methane) seems to be much easier to transport, especially over land by existing or new pipelines.

Kit P

Methane in pipelines has already been cleaned of CO2 and other imputities. Methane is methane.

Harvey D, I am not too keen on replacing coal with natural gas for base load electricity generation because natural gas is very useful for many distributed uses. In terms of air quality and AGW, natural gas is only marginally better than coal.

bigTom

KitP:
Interesting observations on methane emmisions reduction. That is one of the cheaper ways to make progress against GHG emmisions. And I do advocate starting with the most cost effective methods. We disagree on NG however. Bacause of the high efficiency, and relatively low capital cost of gas turbines, NG is a good fit for meeting transient demands, such as peaking plants. If we desire to add significant amounts of time variable renewables to the grid, then having the capability to make up power supply shortfalls due to weather or other factors becomes important.

Using NG for low grade heating applications, such as water and space heating is thermodynamically inefficient, in the sense that electrically powered heat pumps could produce considerably more BTUs per unit of input and should be discouraged.

You might be concerned that the technology being discussed would be used on minable carbon resources, instead of just the unminable resources currently being discussed.

An interesting accounting discussion. For the Powder River basin project discussed, the biogenic gas is supposed to increase the amount of recoverable gas from the field. The gas companies presumably will be paying some sort of royalties to
LUCAS. There needs to be some agreed upon method to determine how much of the produced gas is due to LUCAS's efforts, and how much would have been producable without their efforts. Presumably there is some sort of signature such as isotopic composition, or the compostion of trace gases from which reasonable estimates can be made?

If the trace gases of the biogenic gases differ, it is possible that some sort of processing changes before end use may be required. Sometimes trace impurities can foul equipment.

GreyFlcn

In terms of air quality and AGW, natural gas is only marginally better than coal.

In general, the Carbon:Hydrogen ratio of coal is about 4:1

Where as the Carbon:Hydrogen ratio of natural gas is 1:4

Thats pretty significant.

Angus

What would be the effect of injecting Hydrogen gas (say from some undisclosed hypethetical clean sources) into a coal bed?

Thomas Marihart

fjh said"A.D. isn't new; using it for coal and peat is."

Well, there is one company that I am watching that is doing this above ground today:

They make the Biogas from cow poop:
http://www.intrepid21.com/westpoint_dairy.htm

Clean and compress in tanks (Dairy CNG to pipeline):
http://www.intrepid21.com/ex_tubetanktrailer.htm

And work with a company called Organix
to make the separated solids into a peat like product called RePEAT for the nursery market:
http://streetinsider.com/Press+Releases/Zamzows+First+to+Carry+Organix+Peat+Replacement/2972017.html

It's not underground AD or peat formation, but it is a first...and it could play a positive role in preserving carbon/methane sinks from being diminished for commercial purposes.

Kit P

TM, thanks for the links. It is good to see that AD projects are getting built. The organic product has greater value than the energy depending on the market.

oatsleeksbeans

Methane when not combusted is a far stronger green house gas than carbon dioxide. If I recall correctly about 60 times stronger. Any leakage of CH4 (methane) would rapidly undo any benefit of switching from coal to natural gas generation.

Sad to see Ray Lane et al., of Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers funding a fossil fuel burning venture. Please stick with true renewables resources.

Stat Guy

"There needs to be some agreed upon method to determine how much of the produced gas is due to LUCAS's efforts, and how much would have been producable without their efforts. Presumably there is some sort of signature such as isotopic composition, or the compostion of trace gases from which reasonable estimates can be made?"

Natural gas wells usually have somewhat predictable decline trends. This is established as operators often sell their wells during the production phase and must be properly valued.

"Sad to see Ray Lane et al., of Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers funding a fossil fuel burning venture. Please stick with true renewables resources."

It all cycles. This is using biology to harness stored energy. Energy that was generated in the first place by the sun. If you want to get very technical about the word "renewable", NOTHING is renewable if you look at the scale. It's called the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Should we utilize the sun? YES. Do we want everyone to freeze while we look for something that is better? NO. Did the scientists who came up with fossil fuel technology understand the effects that GHG would have on the environment? NO. Do scientists now understand the problems that could result from the implementation of renewable energy? NO. For example, has anyone come up with an estimate on how world weather would change if we used wind energy across the planet? No, because that would be an insanely complex problem.

Decrease consumption and at the same time increase the percentage of cleaner burner fuel. Otherwise, poor people are going to get the shaft when energy costs go through the roof. Kinda like they are now with ethanol (energy wasting) causing corn prices to go through the roof.

Alex.D

Several differing theories attempt to explain the true origin of natural gas, though the most widely accepted explanation is that natural gas forms from the remains of ancient microorganisms as well as plant and animal matter that have undergone conditions of extreme heat and pressure over very long periods of time.

Kit P

Alex, I think you are confusing the development of coal with natural gas. In any case, the issue here is methane from living bacteria can be increased as a source of fossil fuel.

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A small technical glitch perhaps in the article is that oxygen, at least in atmospheric concentrations rarely kills anaerobic methane formation. It simply stops the formation of methane. We anaerobic digester seeds exposed to air methane responsible for all the time.

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