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March 05, 2008

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Comments

Jerry Z

I agree with Lutz hat it is less expensive than other hybrid systems, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is automatically less expensive for the consumer. Sure, it's a hybrid, and I am genuinely stoked to see GM making this change, but the end goal here needs to be ultra-high-mileage vehicles and near-zero emissions, right? So why doesn't GM bring back the EV1? They had a great vehicle in the EV1, but they squashed it. Luckily there re other, smaller makes out there who can fulfill our electric car needs and desires. Zap is such a company. Http://www.zapworld.com

Don B.

GM (under Lutz) has the necessary leadership to make things happen in the Hybrid/Electric game. I've seen his results at Chrysler in the late 90's;.... before Eaton pimped us to the Germans! Yes Lee! You did screw-up by picking Eaton over Lutz! At least your man enough to admit it!
Sorry about the rant....I still work there, not the same place it was back then....
The Prius has a terrible ROI for the money spent. Energy storage density is the biggest single roadblock to more widespread acceptance of Hybrid technology (read price).
In Gm's case, 12% of let's say... 30mph (non-hybrid) is ~3.5mpg extra economy. The extra juice that you pay for the " Lithium juice" will determine if it's a good investment...when graphed against rising fuel costs. $2000 extra dollars for this BAS+ system driven 30Kmiles/yr saves the owner $420 with $3.50/gas. Just under 5yrs or 20% ROI (assuming no extra maint. costs) wouldn't be too bad of a "tax-free" ROI. Obviously, the more you drive...the more you save. I may be way off on $2000 extra...? But you get my point.

Clee

Sorry, I don't get your point. You say the Prius has a terrible ROI for the money spent, but then you say in GM's case it would be a 20% ROI which you say wouldn't be too bad. But what if you use the same numbers, for the Prius; 30K miles per year, $3.50/gas, compared with a 30mpg non-hybrid?

A Prius gets 46 mpg. So 30K miles uses 652 gallons per year
compared with 30mpg using 1000 gallons per year.
So the Prius saves 348 gallons per year, which is $1218/year at $3.50/gal.
People claim the hybrid stuff costs $3K, some maybe say $5K.
Assuming it's $5K, $1218/$5000 = 24% ROI, better than that GM case.

So, just what was your point? Is 20% ROI terrible or not too bad?

Clee

A little more checking of MSRP
http://autos.yahoo.com/
2008 Chevy Malibu $19,345-$26,795
2008 Chevy Malibu Hybrid $22,140
2008 Saturn Aura $19,745 - $25,375
2008 Saturn Aura Hybrid $22,140
2008 Toyota Prius Hybrid $21,100-$23,370

The Aura and Malibu Hybrids already cost as much as a Prius, and if you add $2000K and 12% fuel efficiency improvement, they will cost more than the Prius and still have worse fuel efficiency than the Prius.

What's your point?

Kit P

Really??? I do not think so. If you drive 30K miles a year, that implies lots of highway miles. The Pius gets about the same mileage as my Corolla on the highway but I paid $6000 less.

If you drive 30K miles a year, the problem is your lifestyle not how efficient your car is. My POS POV gets 30 mpg. I paid $1200 ten years ago and put about 5K miles a year mostly driving to work. It can carry 4x8 sheets of plywood and all the fire wood I can salvage from the dump. So when the Pius gets 150 mpg, the 30K miles a year can feel good about hauling batteries up and down the road.

That is the basic problem with HEV and PHEV. If you do not use a lot a gas, then you can not save much. If you drive a lot, hauling batteries on the highway is stupid.

Clee

Well, if Don B. wants to compare the cost of a Prius to a Corolla, then he should also compare the cost of the Malibu and Aura hybrids with a Corolla, and I still don't see his point.

If a Corolla is plenty of car for you and you only drive 5K miles per year (and perhaps if you drive mostly highway miles) and if you buy used cars or keep cars for 20 years like I do, Then yeah, a Corolla is going to be cheaper. If it weren't for my spouse wanting a Prius partly for the geek factor, I might go for a Honda Fit to replace the old 1988 Chevy Nova when it finally dies.

My Prius- owning friends all average 45mpg. Some get as high as 55mpg. Personally, I'm sure I couldn't get 45mpg highway in a Corolla, especially if my highway trips were so short as to only drive 5K miles per year.

Kit P

Clee, my point is that the Pious is purchased for the wrong reasons, therefore your ROI calculation was bogus. You can get 40 mpg with a Corolla driving 65 mph (3 passengers, full trunk, no wind) which is about what I would expect for the Pious from a Road Track Report on green cars.

The Corolla is my wife's car for running errands. The Honda Fit is what I picked out for her with the Corolla as a second choice but she liked to Corolla. My commute car is an 89' Ford Ranger that gets 30 mpg in the city. Careful choices about lifestyle.

For those that live a consumptive life style, a Pious is not the answer. If you drive 30k miles a year, you live a consumptive life style.

kevinb

Apples and orages
corolla base price 15,250
base price Malibu 19,995 25% bigger motor 700 pounds heavier

Clee

My ROI calculations are based on Don B's numbers. (I don't drive 30K miles per year. I've got only 160K miles on the 1988 car, so that's 8K miles/year.) If Don B. wants to base GM ROI calculations on bogus numbers, he should do the same for the Prius to compare apples to apples. If I were a taxi driver, the Prius ROI numbers would probably work out great. One guy has gotten over 300,000 miles on his Prius and still going great on the original batteries.

I don't really have any problem with your point, Kit. It's Don B's point that I'm not getting.

Clee

Oops.. nope, the 2002 Prius was hit and was totalled a month or so ago at 349,531 miles on the original batteries.
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8575

Toyota claims "the life of the Prius battery pack is determined more by mileage than by time"
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-batteries-none-the-worse-for-wear-cga.htm

So maybe I don't have to worry about the battery life so much even though I keep my cars for 20 years.

Hybrid Authority

Well the batteries keep getting better, and this system sounds like a giant step forward for GM

NiraliSherni

Good work by GM, anything that will increase fuel efficiency and decrease emissions is welcome. However, the best thing would be to drive an EV that has been charged with a renewable energy source such as wind, solar or hydro power.

forex forum

i think this car is so awesome. keep up the good work.

forex trading forum

run your car on water

i hope the batteries will get better in the future.

Clee

Intellichoice did a Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) comparison of 2009 hybrid cars vs their non-hybrid equivalents over a 5-year period, or 70,000 miles. They included fuel, maintenance and repair, retained value, insurance, taxes and licensing.
http://images.intellichoice.com/intellichoice_2009_hybrid_clean_diesel_survey.pdf

They found the TCO for the Malibu hybrid to be more than the TCO for the Malibu LT non-hybrid. But the Ford Escape FWD, Honda Civic, Mazda Tribute 2WD, Nissan Altima, Saturn Vue, and even the Chevy Siliverado ad Chevy Tahoe hybrid versions all had a lower TCO than their non-hybrid equivalents. (There is no Prius non-hybrid, so it's hard to do a direct comparison.)

GM is suspending the Chevy Malibu hybrid model for 2010.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/06/11/gm-to-discontinue-mild-hybrid-malibu-vue-aura-for-2010-model-y/

I guess we'll have to wait another year or two for the new BAS-plus to hit the market, and at what price, before we can evaluate Lutz's claim that it will be more cost effective for consumers. Hope for success.

Sulfuric Guy

It provide better mileage, but lithium-ion batteries get low independence. Batteries without strong electrolyte such as sulfuric acid doesn't worth enough for high-power uses

sikiş izle

thanks admin
Are you really cool,realy very good blog

Jay

The military adopting HHO gas is amazing. What this will do for the environment lowering the fossile fuels that we use. Using plates as a conductor not wires with HHO gas generators offers so much power for any vehicle. Cleaning the all old carbon deposits from even the oldest unmaintained engines. Using plates as a conductor can also save up to 40% gas. If you want to learn how to make a HHO generator using plates go to http://www.fuelwithh2o.com

truck rentals ca

Definitely the batteries are keep getting better. I hope the project will be a successful one.

-James

BPMN product

That is the basic problem with HEV and PHEV. If you do not use a lot a gas, then you can not save much.............

Negocio Rentable


Great site about energy ,this information really helped me , I really appreciate it,I will visit when ever i have found the stuff That i have been searching for in all the web for, keep up the great work!

Sealed Lead Acid Batteries

Very informative and well written. It'll be interesting to see the developments in the coming years!

Sealed Lead Battery Supplier

Nice blog, i'd be interested in keeping up with more of your work!

Lead Acid Battery

Great post, well written!

bucket trucks

How far are these vehicles going to be able to make it on the road without needing to be recharged?

Truck Rental

Informative Post ! I love to see lot of developments in coming years. Technologies are improving day by day. You can also compare today day with day when you were born. There is great changes that you can't imagine also.

Refuse Vehicle Repair

Keeping your car's battery in well shape and making sure it functions properly is very important for the overall functioning of your car. In order to make sure your car won’t have any failures due to battery problems, you must make sure it is in proper condition.

アニメ 抱き枕

Well the batteries keep getting better, and this system sounds like a giant step forward for GM

Shiela

wow! It has been a long time since I have heard somebody talk about something with such passion. I didn't quite understand everything but the passion flows throughout the end, it is amazing to see someone be so in depth about something. I can feel it.

CGS intake

Vehicles with the BAS system use a conventional 4T45-E automatic transmission which has been modified to include a more efficient final-drive ratio and includes an electrically driven pump to provide pressure in auto-stop mode. No significant modifications were required to the vehicle chassis to accommodate the BAS system, with the 36V battery pack housed in the trunk or spare tire well.

Stromanbieter Wechseln

Very nice post, really informative. Added to bookmarks.

Filipino Car Lease Broker Los Angeles

Have prices gone down for these cars at all? Are they using this technology?

Dentist Hollywood

DId GM upgrade their BAS?

Rug Cleaning Los Angeles

It's great that the system is less expensive, but does that really mean the car companies will charge the consumers less? Or charge the same and pocket the extra profit?

Therapist New york

It's great that the system is less expensive, but does that really mean the car companies will charge the consumers less? Or charge the same and pocket the extra profit?

fish tv

Cool stuff, makes me want to check out some GM cars.

Tours in Venice

I am not sure of the technology behind these kinds of batteries but I do wander is they will be made for consumer batteries.

Furniture Stores Los Angeles

I am a big fan of the hybrid power. I hear that those batteries are only good for about 10 years. Hope that someone figures out how to extend their life.

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Batteries/Hybrid Vehicles