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October 30, 2007

Comments

Ken

I wonder if this kind of improvement to lead-acid batteries would have occurred without the competition presented by NiCad, Vanadium Redox, SulphurSodium, NiMetalHydride, LithiumIon etc? The reality has been that Lead-Acid has little changed since the turn of last century - heavy, toxic, foul-fume belching dinosaurs. The main "improvement" over most of that time was changing from something that could be pulled apart and refurbished to something that get's tossed once a single cell starts to fail. They are big recyclers though. One positive I suppose.

Paul H.

Come to the New China and have a great time, blah blah blah, Oh ya, this is a battery comment area! Um. How many cycles for these Lead Acid batteries? What sort of energy density? Any specifics? Also, it is interesting that there was no serious effort on the battery front until laptops and cell phones and other high drain devices started taking over, and now there is innovation everywhere. The science will allow for pure electric vehicles in a few years, if only there is the political will.

Ed Ring

So how many watt-hours per kilogram are we talking about? How many deep cycles? How much do they cost?

mjtimber

Rather disappointing, actually. The "brochure" on their website indicates about 50% more cycle life, far from the order of magnitude projections they have advertised. It does advertise 45% greater volume per liter, but doesn't provide an actual number. 45% greater than what? A standard lead-acid? The best on the market? It would be nice if they provided a little more information (and the spec sheet that the brochure mentions).
https://www.fireflyenergy.com/images/stories/pdfs/FFE-27Grp31BatteryBro10%5B1%5D.25.07_FINAL.pdf

averagejoe

From what I've read, the 3D cell design that this battery uses seems to be a compromise between cost and performance. I'm guessing that they wanted to develop manufacturing capacity and get some revenue coming in as quickly as possible. According to Firefly's website, a more advanced version is forthcoming:

"Firefly is preparing to launch its carbon-graphite foam grid technology in two phases. In the first stage, dubbed “3D”, the new grid material replaces the conventional negative plate in the battery. This results in some weight reduction (in the area of 15 – 20% for slow discharge single batteries; up to 50% for fast discharge battery pack applications), and a battery that is highly resistant to the effects of sulfation. The second phase of implementing the technology, called “3D2“, replaces both the negative and positive plates within a battery with the new carbon-graphite foam grid material. This can result in weight reduction of up to 50% and a battery that is almost impervious to the effects of both sulfation and corrosion, along with many other advantages. For a detailed description on these two modes of implementation, visit the “Firefly Technology” area of the website."

https://www.fireflyenergy.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=94&Itemid=88

From the scant data that I've found, the 3D version appears to retain about 90% capacity at the 600 cycle mark, maybe farther (1000 cycles?). As yet, I have no clue how the more advanced 3D2 version will perform.


mjtimber

Sorry, 45% more energy density per liter. Better make sure I get my units right next time I get snippy.

mjtimber

averagejoe,
That was the battery life I was hoping for, but the data released today indicated a 50% increase (~300 deep cycle charges). I hope the 3D turns out much better, but I'm a little leery with all the numbers that go flying around without any backing (EEStor, anyone?).

averagejoe

Okay, I finished wading through the "white paper" pdf file on Firefly's website. It looks like the holdup for the 3D2 version involves optimizing the chemistry of the positive plates:

"Conversion of the conventional positive plate to a foam electrode eliminates positive grid growth and corrosion, but it also introduces a different set of challenges. Various foams used in the positive plate are affected to varying degrees when exposed to extreme
overcharge conditions."

"Firefly is actively refining and stabilizing foam chemistry as well as increasing the robustness of the foams used in positive plates through manipulation of combinations of both foam chemistry and processing, as well as methods of plate preparation. At present, these chemistries and methods are tradesecret intellectual property, for which Firefly is actively pursuing additional patent protection."

https://www.fireflyenergy.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=201&Itemid=96

averagejoe

mjtimber, you could be right. I'm just making a semi-educated guess based on the following news blurb:

"Mil Ovan, senior vice president and cofounder of Firefly Energy, said “Conventional deepcycle lead acid batteries used in truck starting show sizeable performance dropoff after some 200 deep discharge cycles.” He noted the Firefly Energy battery will deliver greater
reliability and longer service life because it is capable of achieving more than triple the deep cycles while still maintaining over 90 percent of its initial capacity. “In trucking, this means our battery can be expected to last three to five times longer than the best performing valve regulated lead acid batteries..."

https://www.electricdrive.org/index.php?tg=articles&idx=More&topics=75&article=1614

600-1000 cycles is just my best guess at this time. I'm still looking for the spec sheet mentioned in the Firefly brochure.

mjtimber

I don't think they have it up yet, but here's hoping for the best! The white paper did seem to indicate a much higher cycle life, hence my disappointment with this most recent press release.

averagejoe

Yeah, I saw that chart too. The depth of discharge has a pretty radical effect on cycle life. At a 60% discharge level, the chart shows about 6000 cycles until failure. At an 80% discharge, it looks like 5000 cycles until failure. The chart doesn't mention what constitutes "failure". It also doesn't show actual percent of capacity retained vs. the number of charge cycles, so I have no idea how long the battery would remain serviceable for day to day use. I suspect the 3D type batteries would have a longer service life in a PHEV application, but that's just a guess until I find the spec sheet. It should be interesting to see which version Firefly uses in its first PHEV application, the 3D or 3D2.

mjtimber

OK, the spec sheet for the Firefly has a December 1 release date, so we will have to wait a month. Depth of discharge usually has a pretty substantial affect (some off grid house have batteries that, shallowly cycled, last for 15 years). My concern was from the brochure, while says >50% longer cycle life. Well, 50% more than 200 is only 300 cycles. I hope the 5000 cycle number is closer to the truth.

averagejoe

Arrgg... well, I guess I can wait a month. Funny that you should mention off grid applications. If these Firefly truck batteries are cheap enough, they may become the battery of choice for off grid applications. Even for people with grid power, a generator-battery combo unit might come in handy during power outages (hurricanes, earthquakes, etc.).

lory battery

Rather disappointing, actually. The "brochure" on their website indicates about 50% more cycle life, far from the order of magnitude projections they have advertised. It does advertise 45% greater volume per liter, but doesn't provide an actual number. 45% greater than what? A standard lead-acid? The best on the market? It would be nice if they provided a little more information (and the spec sheet that the brochure mentions).

trucking software

Well, i am loking forwards to it. Hope to see a new friefly batteires anytime soon. Btw can i get any more sepc of them for now

Owner Operator Trucking Software

So how much of technically easy is that new powersavre batteirs. I have found that these going green things arent much qulity and degrade on longer term

john price

If I were you I would try to hurry production of your product or EEstor's supercapacitor might beat you to the punch. However, depending on the cost your product still might be a valid alternative.

crystal

well, Hope to see a new friefly batteires

Rick L.

Firefly truck batteries sound sweet. If they are as great as advertised it will be a big boost for trucks to run on these batteries. Tight. Thanks a bunch, Rick Lanese

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Wow that is pretty cool. Thanks for the info!

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Thanks. Your site is great and informative too.

Jhon

I read over your blog, and i found it inquisitive, you may also try
Trucks Suppliers Network for more information.

Regards
Jhon

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That's pretty cool! I wanna shop it now.

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This technology not only reduces the lead content making the batteries smaller and lighter, but additionally enables faster, deeper and more reliable discharges and recharges.

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Its better battery performance will be crucial in contributing to trucker safety, comfort, and productivity.

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This significantly extends the battery’s life, makes it more environmentally friendly, and less expensive.

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the firefly are interesting animals. they usually goes close to rivers and the stop on some rocks besides the water.

Replacement Batteries

Technology just keeps getting better and better. Reminds me of the Energizer Bunny and https://PriceGigs.com. They just keep growing and growing and oh wait... I mean going.

mchljohn88

Firefly Truck Battery is reliable ??? What is the lifetime of this battery ??? Please inform me.
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Well now, I was searching for blogs on fitness or health when i came across this post. Although not exactly what I was expecting I will give it ****.

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Changing the truck battery would be hard but doable. Someone could do that and save energy.

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Energy Density – Because the Firefly design utilizes an efficient highsurface area foam, more of the available chemistry can be engaged, leading to greater efficiencies in weight and size.
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The "brochure" on their website indicates about 50% more cycle life, far from the order of magnitude projections they have advertised. It does advertise 45% greater volume per liter, but doesn't provide an actual number. 45% greater than what? A standard lead-acid? The best on the market? It would be nice if they provided a little more information

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The "brochure" on their website indicates about 50% more cycle life, far from the order of magnitude projections they have advertised. It does advertise 45% greater volume per liter, but doesn't provide an actual number. 45% greater than what? A standard lead-acid? The best on the market? It would be nice if they provided a little more information

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