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September 13, 2007

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Will

VRB systems have a Vanadium Redox large-scale battery which they estimate costs $170 per kWh. This is a very different figure to the $4,500 per kWh quoted for this technology. Can anyone explain why this company went for a system which is far more expensive than its competitors, or else what is not appearing from these figues?
Thanks.

Paul Dietz

The VRB cost undoubtedly is the marginal cost of adding storage capacity (basically, tanks and solutions) and does not include power-related cost (the stack that charges/discharges the system, and associated power electronics).

Carl Hage

Arhhg! It's almost impossible to get decent estimates for costs. For energy storage or intermittent power, the units need to be Wh/day not peak W.

How many MWh is in this system? 4.5 hours?
That makes it $1000/kWh not $4500, and the value is in the Wh, not W, as building an inefficient peaking gas turbine doesn't include fuel costs. I calculate the price needs to come down to around $350/kWh to pay for a $.12/kWh peak cost difference.

In a 2001 presentation I found for NAS, they hope to bring costs down $1100->$630->$250->$140/kWh with mass production.

From May 2006, the NY Bus System is installing a 1MW x 7hr system
for $3.8M ($543/kWh).

This 2005 study has a table with costs/efficiency for various technologies. Flywheels seem like among the lowest cost, but I haven't heard much on this lately. The ZBB flow batteries are quoted at $400/kWh, pumped hydro at $1-2,000/kW (not kWh), compressed air at $350-$450/kW.

Hydrogen/Fuel-Cell is the worst cost-- $4-6000/Kw, and only 30-40% efficient.

I couldn't find a cost for VRB, but I seem to remember systems installed at $1000/kWh-- still high, but they can be worth it to avoid building
an extra transmission line.

bigTom

If I may be presumptuous, I will assume that they are buying a small amount of capacity from promising technologies, as part of a technology developement program. They said they wanted 1 GW of capacity, 6MW is only a small chunk of that, just the sort of scale I would expect for a technology development project.

technofossil has some important points. Too many journalists seem to have a problem distinguishing between units of power, and of energy. Energy is the time integral of power.

Now I can imagine there would be different market needs for say high-power low time sustainablity (perhaps for allowing reaction time for grid stability issues), versus smoothing out production and consumption time disparities -which presumably requires systems that deliver rated power for several hours. I would expect the later systems to cost a lot more per watt, but less per KWhr. Also how quickly the system can respond to a change in demand might vary considerably across different storage technologies.

Kit P

Tom, I would guess that your assumptions are wrong. My electricity comes from AEP and it is 98.2 nuke and coal. I hope it stays that way too. AEP does not operate any nukes but owns 10% of one of the best operating nukes in the US. They also run a pumped hydroelectric near where I live.

The business focus of AEP appears to be producing cheap reliable electricity with coal but there is no place in the AEP service territory that has the pollution problems of California.

For the folks who like the idea of storing energy from renewable energy, this is still good news. If AEP is doing something it is likely because it makes good business sense. For location with good wind and solar resources, AEP may be demonstrating the economics of batteries even if the energy produced is from cheap coal.

George

Kit, there may be no place in the AEP service territory that has severe pollution problems, but the particulates from their stacks don't stay in the service territory. They wind up in my backyard, and I'm not crazy about breathing them. I'd prefer that AEP (and everyone else) replace the coal with something cleaner. Nukes would be fine with me but I'm not particular regarding the technology.

Kit P

George, you sound like one of those people who live in a dirty city and want to blame it on coal plants someplace else. Your local elected representative would much rather point the finger someplace else other than at your POV and the diesel delivery trucks and buses that service your cesspool.

In other words George, if you want clean air move out of the dirty city but please show me the data that supports your conclusion that coal plants hundreds of miles away are the source of your pour air quality.

I certainly agree that nukes should be built particularity in areas that would require more railroads. It would appear that AEP plants to continue make electricity with coal and build transmission lines so George can have lots of electricity.

Eutopia

1) George, what geographical area are you referring to, may I ask?
2) Kit P: I realize that George said 'particulate' but I remind you that CO2 from those coal plants does affect people everywhere. Or do you disagree? By the by, Kit P. what area do you call home?

CoasttoCoast

For the one asking for the MWh,

the article said that it supplied 1 MW, for about 7 hours.

Wouldn't that make it a 7MWh battery?

Kit P

No Eutopia, I do not think CO2 'affects' people everywhere speaking as an environmental engineer. I have read are some UN and National Science Academy reports on the topic of AGW. Both of theses sources indicate that the AGW is too small to measure.

ALARA (as low as reasonable achievable) is a principle of applying engineering or management solutions to reduce the impacts of making electricity. I was very anti-coal thirty years ago. I think the coal industry in the US has reduced the environmental impact significantly. I live in the eastern edge (downwind) of AEP service territory. Now if I could convince my neighbors to burn leaves when there is a temperature inversion.

Glen

Anyone know how NAS batteries are maintained at 300 degrees C?

Payday Loan

The articles in this energy blog are very interesting. I love reading here and being more informed about new things. Alternate sources of energy are just the things we need. We are better off concocting new ideas that will seriously help us in during times of financial crisis. All people are benefited by blogs like this. I would like to share some the news, tips and articles here. http://personalmoneystore.com/moneyblog/ This will help us become more aware of what is happening around us. The more knowledgeable we are, the better, wiser decisions we will make.

Payday Loan Advocate

These days we have to be aware of the different inventions. It helps us in our daily works and makes it more convenient and easy. In future generations a lot more will be discover and more convenient for the people. But this will be more expensive. We have to use our money wisely. We cannot avoid expenses but then using our money wisely is a big help.

hybrid car owner

If the fossil energy is running out, the people must begin thinking about alternative energy. This has started!
hopefully better for the earth.

Phymah

NaS is sealed in a box. a 350°C in the box is keep during they working. In my personal view, NaS is much easy to production during a flow-line. So the price will drop quick than VRB. And most important is China has start to produce them both VRB and NaS

الفيسبوك

good news thanks for updating us with this

komal@EPC Edgware

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komal@air conditioning survey

American Electric Power take right step to save energy for future. this the best way for this thing.

komal@air conditioning survey

American Electric Power is the only battery which is not use any harmful element for give energy. this is suggested by many people those use this battery.

B2B Marketplace

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Jonas

AEP is providing electricity for US, and has the largest utilities, but now, how much power is left in AEP.. I'm afraid of our Mother's Nature..

iPhone 4 ケース

I certainly agree that nukes should be built particularity in areas that would require more railroads. It would appear that AEP plants to continue make electricity with coal and build transmission lines so George can have lots of electricity.

iPhone 4 ケース

good news thanks for updating us with this

r4

The business focus of AEP appears to be producing cheap reliable electricity with coal but there is no place in the AEP service territory that has the pollution problems of California.

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マークバイマークジェイコブス

It would appear that AEP plants to continue make electricity with coal and build transmission lines so George can have lots of electricity

モンクレール

West Virginia and Ohio service territories next year. The company will also work with wind developers to identify a third location for NAS battery deployment next year, using the storage capability to help offset the intermittent nature of wind generation.

アバクロ

d Ohio service territories next year. The company will also work with wind developers to identify a third location for NAS battery deployment next year, using the storage capability to help offset the intermittent nature of wind generatio

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