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August 08, 2006

Comments

Engineer-Poet

10 MPH is a rather high cut-in speed, and if the unit doesn't reach its rated power until 25 MPH it's going to perform poorly at most sites.

I know someone who's working on a small HAWT with a many-bladed rotor, like a classic water pumper; the high solidity would also make it visible to birds.  I noted that this rotor would have high drag and thus low efficiency, but it's probably better than this VAWT.

jcwinnie

I have to agree with EP on this one. What TMA achieve with adding aerofoils to their HAWT was to shift the curve to the left and still retain the same HAWT advantages.

jeremy

This lift-and-drag design has fundamental efficiency flaws and is not likely to exceed 25% efficiency. In fact, that these guys show their own chart with a 40 MPH plus windspeed to achieve their 1 kW power does not bode well. Most of us live, and would utilize a 1 kW design in class 2 and class 3 winds (5-15 MPH on average), which means this turbine would be of little use.

I work for Wind-Sail, which is a direct competitor to PacWind. Wind-Sail is also aiming at the 1kW and 3kW VAWT market.

thanks,
jeremy

petropest

I saw a vertical wind turbine design that had hoop like blades years ago so the multi-directional and low maintenance facet have been explored and also show promise. I especially like the fact that the generator is at the base. However, I agree with the above commenters, any scalable design must produce significant efficiency at lower (+- 10 mph) wind speeds. Otherwise than that it is a great concept.

Jeff Olney

Yeah. If it itakes 20 MPH winds to power a single 100-watt light bulb, no one will be interested. They need to go with a smaller generator and a different gear ratio to swing that power curve to the lower end.

Engineer-Poet

petropest: does it look like anything from here or here?

Ender

The point with this turbine is that it would not be the primary power generator. For me it is the ideal secondary generator for a primary solar PV setup. Its performance in high winds and turbulent areas that characterise installations in suburbia make it perfect for my purposes.

If you want power in low wind you have to go for a large HAWT like a Bergey or a Westwind. The problem here is that unless you have a perfect wind site a large HAWT's performance will be seriously degraded by turbulence.

petropest

EP, yes, those are the ones.

Ender, Bergey, that's funny, his shop is right down the road.

jim

What about this one...

http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2006/04/turby_vertical_.html#more

Jim

Brian Antonich

Hi,

I'm Brian Antonich the Small Wind Program Analyst for Windustry (www.windustry.org). I've seen many companies that are trying to market designs similar to these.

Here are the facts:

1. Vertical axis wind turbines have been around for longer than horizontal axis turbines. They are not new or innovative. They are generally a less efficient design and have difficult technical problems to overcome.

2. Horizontal axis turbines are the prominent design because they do not have some of the technical issues that Vertical axis machines to...namely fewer vibrations because as vertical axis machines spin, one blade will pass in front of another for a short period of time creating a difference in torque for a very short time during each rotation. Think of your car running out of alignment for 10-15 years and think of how much damage that will cause to your engine. This will also cause problems for a wind turbine.

I understand that this design probably has fewer vibrations, but at the expense of efficiency. This is a drag design turbine unlike many other vertical and horizontal axis machines that take advantage of Bernoulli’s Principle to cause lift on the blade due to a difference in pressure between the top (curved) side and the bottom (flat) side of the blade. The lift type machine is much more efficient.

3. Past commentators are correct in stating that if the machine isn't going to be putting out 1 kW of energy until the wind speed reaches 40 mph in 99% of locations you wouldn't be able to light a light bulb most days.

4. Small (home and farm sized) turbines are generally not dangerous to birds. Driving your car down the freeway is much more dangerous to birds and other wild life than putting a turbine up.

Commercial scale turbines (big enough to produce energy for hundreds of homes) pose only a minor threat to birds. Machines constructed in the 1980's and 1990's had three problems which made them dangerous to birds:

a. Lattice towers of the towers were great places for birds to nest. Bids would take flight to do what birds do and fly directly into the blades. With the incorporation of tubular towers into wind farm design the number of bird deaths has dropped significantly.

b. The blades spun very fast on early turbine designs. With new designs the blades of the machines spin at a very low rate compared to years past and the number of bird deaths has decreased immensely as well.

c. Poor siting of wind farms put them in areas of high migration rates or other sensitive areas. Altamont Pass in California and several wind farms on the Great Plains are examples of bad siting practices. At Altamont Pass thousands of birds migrate through that corridor each year through turbines with lattice towers and old technology. Not good for birds. There are several species of ground nesting birds on the great plains that are sensitive to tall structures. Tall structures equal tree where a owl or hawk might be perched ready to have lunch on babies. This makes mother birds very uncomfortable and want to go away. This is also not good.

Wind farms go through an extensive siting review process involving input from the public and experts on birds and other wildlife. This has caused impacts from wind farms on wildlife to decrease significantly.

I think that's probably enough to spark some good discussion. Please feel free to contact me if any of you have questions about wind energy.

Just remember before investing in anything, look at all the alternatives before making a decision. This may be a good design...but there are other designs that are much better than this one.

Brian Antonich, M.S.
Small Wind Program Analyst
Windustry
2105 1st Ave S
Minneapolis, MN 55404
t. 612-870-3465
f. 612-813-5612
brian@windustry.org
www.windustry.org

Will

It is too bad that wind power can not solve our most pressing issue - dependence on foreign oil. Unless we can make a massive shift into electric cars. :)

We are discussing wind power, hybrids, ethanol, plug-ins, etc. on our Alternative Energy Message Board

Will

Robert Lucas

I was wondering if anyone here had looked at the vawt produced by Quiet Revolution? It appears to the untrained eye to be of great value.

onlychevy

This is all so typical of the "Go Green" people in this country. Everybody fights and tells everybody else how the other persons products don't work.

I don't know about any of that drag and lift stuff, i just want something to cut down my energy bill. If designers would stop fighting for the almighty dollar, this problem would allready be solved.

I just want a simple, low cost, product for my home. Not something that will take 35 years to pay for itself.

If wind power is not available to me from a product that will save me money, Ill just keep supporting my local coal burning power company.

When will somebody design a product that is simple, low cost, and will save the planet??

In the mean time, Ill throw another log on the fire, and watch football on my big screen while the power company keeps shoving in the coal!

Zeyphr

Hello; Like all forms of energy production and schemes, they go through evolutionary changes. Both HAWT & VAWT deserve far more experimentation, research and effort to bring out the optimum in practical designs. Quiet Revolution is doing this with their approach to the problem. Don't be afraid to experiment and try different approaches. This is how Technology advances. Zeyphr, Ph.D, physicist.

Jorge Foglia

Hello,
Pls. send information regarding this product.
Cost, Technical Info.Shipping to Puerto Rico
and Dealership for this market.
Thank you,
Jorge Foglia
Empresas Foglia, Inc.

JR

The Delta 2 model that Jay Leno installed ran about $19K and they say it produces 10kw in ~24mph winds. That seems pretty darn cost effective to me?

Clee

10KW at 24mph? What is the average wind speed at Jay Leno's garage?

Bob Wallace

PacWind, the company that makes the Delta II and other models of VAWTs doesn't present any performance curves on their site.

The links are there, but the links are dead.

Clee

Hmm... Seems I got caught by a spam filter.
Any way, the following link worked for me.
http://www.pacwind.net/Delta-II.pdf

Anna

Hi. Does anyone have a problem with the height of this turbine? In the literature, the company mentions a 30 foot pole or higher depending on the site. In addition, you can put it on your roof. Any issues with vibrations filtering down to your living area?

Most horizontal turbines are at least 80 feet high. Does this height issue make the turbine less effective or is it the design? If you read the performance charts of the pac-wind, what everyone is saying is true. Does anyone know what the wind speed needs to be for a Bergy to be efficient? Thanks for your help in explaining this vertical turbine.

I was able to get into the pdf chart mentioned above. anna www.green-talk.com

Lucky Dog

I am new to this and trying to understand what would be the best way to get started. I somewhat agree with Mr. Lucas about just wanting to learn a way to provide solar, wind or some form of energy at a resonable cost so I could remove my dependence on the power companies and at the same time figure out what might work for my community. I have a good roof for a solar collector (earth contact) and about 2 acres of land. Is this conducive to cost effective wind energy for an area like Missouri?

DBeeler

I have looked at wind for several years and get excited when i see a potential solution. But each time it seems to come back to the same issue, not enough wind to actually generate something that would make since and or the need to build a giant thing in your yard, which you wont do. If someone knows of a real solution love to hear about it. otherwise i assume we will only get wind energy from wind farms.

poetryman69

Stop funding the terrorists!

No more Oil Wars!

Energy Independence Now!

Drill in Anwar.

Build more nuclear power plants

Use More coal.

Use more natural gas


Turn trash into energy


Double the efficiency of windmills and solar cells.

If France can do nuclear power so can we.


If Brazil can do biomass/ethanol power so can we.


If Australia can do LNG power so can we.


Domestically produced energy will end the recession and spur the economy.


Stop paying oil dollars to those who worship daily at the alter of our destruction.


Preserve our Civil Rights and defend our Freedom by ending dependence on foreign oil.


fish head

dead is right Ive tried to get a reply from pakwind and they dont return anything

fish head

Are there any other sites that have vawts for sale and,or more info ?

fish head

why did they remove my comments ? this outfit must be on the up & up they wont return my e mails or my phone calls.So id be careful about giving them any money

rush_man

It seems to me the renewable energy industry is like the early auto industry. If it weren't for Henry Ford taking a simple, effective machine and mass producing it to bring the price down, then no one in the early 20th century would have been able to afford a car. Today, you can buy a new car or truck that has thousands of complex moving parts for less than the cost of wind turbine that has 3 or 4 non-complex moving parts, doesn't there seem to be a disconnect somewhere?
Where is the Henry Ford of the renewable energy industry?
I wish I was independantly wealthy, I would buy a well established wind turbine company like Bergey, Jacobs, or Eoltec and then crank out wind turbines to make them as common place and affordable as the modern auto.

trina

i just looked up quiet revolution's vawt: it costs about $50,000! pacwind's models start at less than $3,000. any hawts i've priced out begin at more than $20,000. so how do we compare the partial usefulness of pacwind versus something that may or may not work due to turbulence at a rural or suburban homestead, that costs way too much to install in any case?! please respond, people who can really explain if pacwind is useful or not. thanks, a rural greenie in upstate new york.

WhenWind

Has anyone seen the VAWT by realracecom on youtube? It claims 2,500 watts and seems to work well. Who are they and is it real? Comments?

cheryel

The founder of Pacwind has passed away. Phil, my brother has been ill for months fighting cancer. Pacwind being ran by family and extended family have focused on Phil's health and wellness as well as investing blood, sweat & tears into getting as close to perfecting it's product (Phil's) Legacy, as possible.
On behalf of my brother, I am sorry for any unanswered questions. Things will come back to life when the healing begins.

Thank you,

Cheryel Watkins

Kit P

Best wishes and good luck to Phil's family. It takes a lot of hard work and sacrifice to make new energy ideas mainstream.

Glenn

Beware PacWind. I paid them in full, over $8,000, for a turbine system nearly a year ago. They have lied to me at least 10 times about a due date and now will not even return my phone calls. I filed complaints with the California BBB and Attorney General's office and to date they have not responded to the agency inquiries. It looks like these scam artist have cheated me out of over $8,000. Do not let this happen to you. Don't say you haven't been warned.

Laddie

For more info on VAWT's try www.morewindstuff.com
Well made site, good photos and excellent explanations for construction.
LRB

Laddie

For more info on VAWT's try www.morewindstuff.com
Well made site, good photos and excellent explanations for construction.
LRB

Laddie

Sorry, that should be www.windstuffnow.com
LRB

CAHileman

Why don't you write Jay Leno and Ed Bagley Jr about PACWIND. They are advertising PACWIND products. Let them know that the people they are recommending are ripping others off. Let them show that on "Living with Ed"

CAHileman

Why don't you write Jay Leno and Ed Bagley Jr about PACWIND. They are advertising PACWIND products. Let them know that the people they are recommending are ripping others off. Let them show that on "Living with Ed"

jeff freeman

dont contcct living with ed i have emailed him 3 times with no results

jeff freeman

they both most likely got a break for installing and using them on their shows

max

Hi Mary at PacWind:
5-6 mph ? When you insult your audiance your editorial only communicates your deciet

Peter in Hawaii

So it seems that PacWind is not a reputable company. Are there any others out there marketing a unit for a home that generates 5-10kW that is affordable?

Thanks,
Peter

Wally Flint

Check this out - a very good blog that deals with many of the issues discussed here.

http://salientwhiteelephant.wordpress.com/2009/04/01/highly-scalable-direct-drive-vawt/

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danny ryan

I need information on "green" workforce skills needed in 21 cen.

Donald Case

I am having a problem finding a vawg that works with an inverter that is not three phase. I called a couple of companies and was told they are sold as a package. Any help?

SMARTH CONSTANT

I have been reviewing a lot on the internet regrding the different design and the VAxis design interest me a lot. I can do quiet a lot on my known. I have seen a power plant and a portable unit by FTC WINDTURBINE :do they have the same problem?

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Rhondar

We paid 11,000.00 to Pacwind about 2 years ago....finally got a call after a letter from our lawyer saying WePower bought Pacwind out and they were sorry for the delay and refunded 1000.00 as a gesture of good will and promised they would have it to us in the spring....well spring has come and gone and no generator. Calls are NOT returned now. BBB and Atty. Generals office also do not respond or record complaints.
What now?

Does anyone know the principal's names so we can sue them?

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