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March 04, 2006

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Engineer-Poet

Ahem:

three kilowatts of thermal output per hour
Ain't no such unit.

Hint:  If you can't substitute "horsepower" for "kilowatts" in a sentence without it being obviously correct, you've used it wrong.  There are kilowatts and kilowatt-hours, but nobody uses horsepower per hour OR kilowatts per hour.

Jim from The Energy Blog

Honda does

Rod Adams

Honda PR people might use a unit like kilowatts of thermal energy per hour, but I would bet that their engineers would not do so on purpose.

A watt is a unit of power, which means that it is defined as energy per unit time - specifically Joules per second. A kilowatt is simply 1000 watts.

Thomas

Normally, kilowatt per hour would refer to power increase per hour, but certainly not power.

Sometimes people with no knowledge about energy use the phrase: "kilowatt hour per hour" *GG*

Using hydrogen for micro-CHP is border-line insane! It is energy destruction of the worst kind.

The 85% efficiency cited above fails to mention the 50% efficiency to convert electricity into hydrogen sitting in someone's fuel tank! This bumps the effciency down to 40-45% total energy efficiency, which is very low for a CHP system.

Investing in "emergency power" for individual homes probably costs 50 times as much as upgrading the power grid to a decent level.

With its inferior efficiency, hydrogen as storage of energy will only exacerbate any energy crisis we might encounter. For documentation, please read reports E13 and/or E17 on this website: http://www.efcf.com/reports/

Jim, I realise that you try to convey all news regarding energy technology. However, it is my mission to tell people that hydrogen is a non-starter that we need not wait for. There are plenty of superior alternatives, as documented on this blog.

Please, keep up the good work. I read your blog daily, with great pleasure :-)

-Thomas

Bob

Hydrogen isnt the key part of that story. Honda has developed a natural gas fired ICE based CHP unit that is packaged by some company to take the waste heat and convert it to space heating.

Interesting approach. However, there are some issues. If the ICE gets 20-25% electric efficiency and overall the system is said to be 80% efficient this means that 55-60% of the energy is converted into space heating. Lets say it is a 2kW electric - enough to supply most if not all of the house's electric needs (provided you don't turn on the microwave at the same time the hair dryer is on). This gives a thermal output of 5-6kW (that's a lot) What does the home owner do with all of that heat in the spring, summer and fall? I don't think that you want to run the ICE if I cant use the heat.
It brings up the "nameplate efficiency" vs "actual efficiency" question. I don't see how this is truly an 80% efficient unit if i am wasting the heat for 3 seasons fo the year.

Jim from The Energy Blog

Although not common and currently a bit pricy, the waste heat can be used to run an air conditioning system. These systems are becomiing increasingly popular for commercial instalations. If home CHP acieves any popularity, the attraction of no additional operating cost for air conditioners may increase their popularity in homes.

Brian the Plumber

I'm scheduled to be trained as an installation subcontractor for this company. I think the system has serious merit and unlimited potential. As far as the heat is concerned consider absorption chillers to convert to AC for the house, a pair of lines to the swimming pool in lieu of a direct fired gas pool heater (of which I install over 100/year and I only have about 5% of the local market). The unit can also be used to supply BTUs to snow melt systems. Investing in an expansion of the grid is only going to help Wall Street. MIT's entire campus is on CHP as is UNH, Rutgers, and numerous other facilities. Payback period is under 7 years. Starwoods Hotels is sold ons the technology and has declared they intend to install CHP systems in every one of their hotels. This is simple, proven technology that has been around for over 100 years and it doesn't require a whole new infrastructure to implement it.

Brian the Plumber

I'm scheduled to be trained as an installation subcontractor for this company. I think the system has serious merit and unlimited potential. As far as the heat is concerned consider absorption chillers to convert to AC for the house, a pair of lines to the swimming pool in lieu of a direct fired gas pool heater (of which I install over 100/year and I only have about 5% of the local market). The unit can also be used to supply BTUs to snow melt systems. Investing in an expansion of the grid is only going to help Wall Street. MIT's entire campus is on CHP, as is UNH, Rutgers, and numerous other facilities. Payback period is under 7 years. Starwoods Hotels is sold on the technology and has declared they intend to install CHP systems in every one of their hotels. Mission Park High in Roxbury installed a sytem which provided 50% of the juice to the school. $1.8M invested with a three year payback. This is simple, proven technology that has been around for over 100 years and it doesn't require a whole new infrastructure to implement it. One of these in every home and larger units in every commercial building and the emissions is way down and the mideast will be choking on the oil glut, gasoline wouold be be under two bucks a gallon for the forseeable future. Things will be even sweeter when the stirling engine is economically practical. Get on board guys and gals.

amazingdrx

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2006/2/19/1772543.html

This direct fuel cell microturbine design runs on multiple fuels and can achieve 75% electrical efficiency.

It has only a few moving parts making manufacturing much cheaper than internal combustion. Honda needs to get out in front of the curve.

Their ICE cogeneration technology relying on natural gas that is soaring in price is a poor choice for heating/cooling as well.

A much better choice for heating and cooling is concentrating solar cogeneration and a geothermal heat pump powered either by electric or direct wind power mechanically. It is a lot cheaper and easier to store heat (or cold) than wind or solar electricity.

pcburke

Anyone have a operating cost per kilowatt? ave operating cost,fuel consumption?that and what about any us field tial data?
dealer data? how about efficency on bio desil? rather than bust on honda, how about we embrace this and run with it?This might have interesting potential as a municipal appliciation. anyone in vt got one of these,love to get a peak.

Ron Wagner

I understand Honda is also testing their CHP systems fueled by biomass.

A small computer running the system should be able to turn the power up or down depending on need. High electrical need is only when major appliances are running. Fluorescent lighting, and LCD screens etc. should greatly reduce electrical demand also.

The ice storage method as used in large buildings, could easily be adapted for homes.

It looks like it is only a matter of time for creativity and technology to greatly lessen our dependence on foreign oil.

Ron Wagner

heating

If you have looked into solar energy as a method for heating your home, panels are usually the first things that come up. There are, however, other unique methods.

The Solar Heating Aspect You Have Never Heard of Before

The power of the sun is immense. The energy in one day of sunlight is more than the world needs. The problem, of course, is how does one harness this power. Solar panels represent the obvious solution, but they have their downside. First, they can be expensive depending upon your energy needs. Second, they do not exactly blend in with the rest of your home.

Passive solar heating represents a panel free method of harnessing the inherent energy found in the sun for heating purposes. If you come out from a store and open the door of your car in the summer, you understand the concept of passive solar heating. A wide variety of material absorbs sunlight and radiates the energy back into the air in the form of heat. Passive solar heating for a home works the same way as the process which overheats your car in the parking lot.

sheen

Hi
Can somebody help me with information on how to calculate average energy consumption in heating swimming pool.
i need to put dollar figures to the energy consumed for year round heating of swimming pool.

thanks

cheen

montana alternatives

I think Honda is missing a big market share by limiting imports of the CHP to one company. I have a large group of people and businesses interested in this product. I also know a significant number of tinkerers that would also love to get their hands on this unit, myself being one of them. Climate Energy has exclusivity on this item. There are other companies that manufacture CHP's and hopefully they will open the market up to people that have real interest in this alternative energy. Some of you comment on the economics of this , it is obvious that energy costs are only going to escalate. Wind is now coming into its own, solar, whether is is PV or heat, will be soon affordable. Energy alternatives are no longer "feel good" activities. There is financial justification. This is the driving force for alternative energy as it is for any market. Why Honda would limit sales to one company is baffling. Kinda like apple limiting the iPhone to ATT. Must be the going fad with big companies.

Kit P

Honda is likely thinking it would be dangerous and irresponsible to sell a CHP system to be installed by goof balls.

generic viagra

With high fuel prices and a weak US economy in June 2008, Honda reported a 1% sales increase while its rivals, including the Detroit Big Three and Toyota, have reported double-digit losses. Honda's sales were up almost 20 percent from the same month last year. The Civic and the Accord were in the top five list of sales. Analysts have attributed this to two main factors. First, Honda's product lineup consists of mostly small to mid-size, highly fuel-efficient vehicles. Secondly, over the last ten years, Honda has designed its factories to be flexible, in that they can be easily retooled to produce any Honda model that may be in-demand at the moment.

Belarus Potash Company

That's great that you think in this way there's many times that people get boring reading a book.

w p cooney ltd

can we buy from you .the chp unit.regards billy

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